Access to Remote Folders

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Tahtu
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Access to Remote Folders

Post by Tahtu »

I'm using GMail as mail provider via IMAP. I can use the remote folders like Sent and Trash as separate accounts inside PP as well.

But imho is not really usable. They should not separate accounts, they should be shown in the same account via new pages inside the page control of the account (Inbox, Outbox, Draft, Search).

I understand, to change this, it would be a lot of work. But having different folders as separate accounts it's not easy to understand and not easy usable, I think. :?

Btw: I don't understand, why PP stores deleted mails on my local storage, if I'm using IMAP.

For me, it looks like you didn't really understand the concept of remote folders.. :cry:
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mjs
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by mjs »

I'll just add my 2-cent on this as I'm sure Jeff will likely want to follow up as well.

There a couple of relatively recent posts that I've directly linked to where Jeff has explained the following (in theses two specific topics) in regards to your comments/concerns:

In topic (edited to highlight relevant part in red) POP3 - delete message
Jeff wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:42 pm POP Peeper is an email notifier and isn't expected to work exactly like a full email client. POP Peeper's main function is to reflect/sync the messages on the server.

You can "hide" messages to accomplish the same thing (you can assign a keyboard shortcut in Tools / PPtweaker / Shortcuts).
In topic (edited to highlight relevant part in red) prevent deleting mail on server
Jeff wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:04 pm That setting in TB doesn't do what you think it does. POP3 clients traditionally -- by default -- delete messages from the server when they're retrieved. By setting it to "don't delete", it simply won't delete messages when they're downloaded into TB. I could be wrong (it's been over a decade since I used another email client ), but I think that if you delete the message in TB, it will delete the message on the server.

Regardless, the reason I initially said (and forgot to explain), "That's the way that POP Peeper has always worked and probably always will" is because POP Peeper is not intended to be a full-fledged email client -- it's an email notifier/screener. The traditionally expected use of such utilities is that deleting messages deletes from the server so that your email client won't bother to collect them. Now, granted, PP has gone well beyond the scope of an email notifier, so that could be a good argument. But "hiding" is effectively the same thing as what you're asking for and is already implemented in PP; the only difference is that hiding will store a little more data in the database because it still stores the (compressed) message data.
Feel free to take a look through either topic in more detail as to any further specific concerns/questions you may have. :wink:
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
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Jeff
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by Jeff »

they should be shown in the same account via new pages inside the page control of the account (Inbox, Outbox, Draft, Search).
I'm not sure what that means? You mean each folder should have a separate tab? I don't claim to be a GUI expert but some people would have more tabs than would fit; and I personally wouldn't want that for any folders. It might make sense for draft (and only draft), but that's a special case and another ball of wax that I don't want to get into yet.
But having different folders as separate accounts it's not easy to understand and not easy usable, I think.
It has its pros and cons, I'm not going to debate that it's ideal because I agree, it's not and, besides, I've previously hinted at a certain feature that will be in PPv6 so it makes that debate moot. The current behavior may not be intuitive, but it's certainly usable. Keep in mind that when this was added, the main reason it was added was because the people who requested it filtered their messages into other folders using server-side rules, so they needed new email notification in those folders -- that's why the current behavior makes sense; but it's still perfectly usable for simple access.
Btw: I don't understand, why PP stores deleted mails on my local storage, if I'm using IMAP.
Again, I'm not sure what that means. By default, PP does not store deleted messages unless you change that option (tools / options / storage; save deleted messages -- the default is disabled).
For me, it looks like you didn't really understand the concept of remote folders.. :cry:
It allows you to do exactly that, what's not to understand?
Tahtu
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by Tahtu »

Jeff wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:25 pmI'm not sure what that means? You mean each folder should have a separate tab? I don't claim to be a GUI expert but some people would have more tabs than would fit; and I personally wouldn't want that for any folders.
Yes, I can confirm: You are not a GUI expert.

Currently, I have four tabs: "Inbox", "Outbox", "Draft" and "Search" - these are folders for mails, except "Search", this is a virtual folder.

The very most IMAP provider offering the "Sent" and "Trash" folders. So it would be nice, to have them as tabs too.

Indeed, you are right - there are a lot of folders available for a lot of IMAP providers. Additionally, there are additional user defined folders too. To implement one tab for each of that folders are too much. But software should be configurable, like PP it is. So inside the Account settings of PP, a user could be able to select, which folders he wants to see as a tab. By default, "Inbox", "Sent" and "Trash" should be enough.

"Outbox" should be visible only, if PP should not send the mail immediately. (Btw: If I configure PP to send the mails immediately, the window should be disabled but still visible until it's completely sent.)
Jeff wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 5:25 pmKeep in mind that when this was added,
I understood the current implementation: PP was originally a POP3 notifier - and it grows to a simple POP3 client and IMAP was implemented easily later on. And the easiest way to implement the remote folders of IMAP is using one PP account for each remote folder.

I believe, you are working hard on PP. But you waste a lot of time while doing this, because you do not really understand how to make it easier. For example, you are offering a lot of documentation how to use PP instead of handling it really intuitively.

Indeed, it's harder to develop a software intuitively, than to write a large documentation of it. Same thing for the forum: You are mods are answering questions as well. But it would be better for the users to have it more intuitively.

Example: There are a lot of Plugins available for PP. Why? It would be more easily, if a lot of them would be integrated complete. So you and the users would have a lot lesser work handling and understanding them. Additionally, the Plugins are currently not translatable, which makes it harder for the users to understand them.

(Btw: For the Spelling plugin, PP does not show a correct note, if that plugin is not installed. Also, it's hard to figure out, that Spelling is a Plugin. Last but not least, this plugin is not available on your plugins download page. There are also no note, how to install it by choosing the right way inside POPPeeperPro-Install-v541.exe.)

In your whole PP project, there are very many small issues. You don't see them by yourself - and because of this, you can't fix them by yourself.

No human is perfect. But each of them are here on earth to grow up and learn to become better. I wrote the paragraphs before to show one way to you, you can go. But it's your decision, if you want to go to it.

Maybe, I'm a good GUI expert for software. But I'm a very bad writer. So I had to find a solution for my issues writing texts. Because of this, I'm happy about each Spelling software, assisting me to find my spelling mistakes.

So it's important for each of us, to know our personal issues and figure out, how to handle them.

I offered a lot of small translation issues to you ("German translation" mails). You can use that mails to solve that issues, if you want. I wrote them not to force this, but I wanted to offer a chance to you to do that.
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mjs
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by mjs »

I'd like to say that we do very much appreciate that you've taken the time to post the suggestions and ideas that you have expressed, with that said however, I'd like to offer once again my 2-cents on a couple of things you've mentioned if I may on the subject of "plugins" and in regards to project "insight" as to the directions of PP:

1) Optional plugins provide flexibility as to what a user might or might not want to use. The key word here is "optional" - as opposed to including everything under-the-sun which in some users cases could be considered "bloat" based on what they want and do not want. Bottom line in regards to providing "options" is that this approach affords the user a way to keep software more streamline as opposed to offering no decisions to users and forcing every particular feature on users some of which they might have any interest. This is at least the way I see it in regards to providing users valuable "flexibility" that would not otherwise be available to them by simply including all features absent any choices available to users as to what they may want to incorporate into the app that in turns helps retain simplicity as opposed to forcing unwanted features on users. We very often have users who request more options as to leaving out functions while there will be others that want more. In my view, the best way to approach user preferences that can run from one end of the spectrum to the other in regards to providing users "choices" is to offer more options which from my perspective is what the implementation of "plugins" accomplishes. This is just my personal POV on this, of course, of which others will doubtless disagree. :wink:

2) I can attest to the fact that Jeff actually does an excellent job, in my view, as far as running ideas/concepts past the mods quite often and very often will ask for user input in regards to making decisions on what the direction of PP will be at critical junctures of the project (far more than you'll typically experience from devs in general). I've personally been with the project for 10 years, considering you're perhaps relatively new to the project this might not be that apparent to you in the short time you've contributed to the forum. So I can say, without reservation, that Jeff does absolutely take it upon himself to make every effort to keep at all times an open perspective as to the direction of the PP project. Perusing the forum will perhaps give you an added appreciation as to how Jeff is quite open to suggestions by users including you might notice a survey Jeff posted on what preferences users may have specific to a number of PP features (link: https://www.esumsoft.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=7266). In closing this second point (while others are of course free to hold their own notion on what I have to say) I do not feel that any personal bias on my part is influencing my opinion as I always try and remain impartial on these type of discussions. 8)
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Tahtu
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by Tahtu »

I'm using PP since a lot of years as a simple mail notifier to start Thunderbird on new mails.

Since some weeks, I removed Thunderbird and used PP on Windows only. Because of this, I'm using more features inside of it.
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mjs
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by mjs »

There you go Tahtu, I appreciate you helping to make my point. :wink:

By providing users choices as to what they do or do not want to include in PP by way of utilizing optional "plugins" provides users with valuable "flexibility".

At one point, you were interested in more limited features/functions (for PP to be used more as a limited "mail notifier"). However, at a later time, as you mentioned, you're interests changed in regards to what PP does hence your preferences at a later time were to include more of these features/functions.

So the approach of providing "optional" plugins at each of the junctures while you were using PP as to what it was you wanted PP to do for you at any specific point in time would appear to be a very practical approach in order to at all times keep PP more streamline (and by doing so keep less unwanted bloat, based on personal preferences that as you have very adeptly pointed out can change over time).
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers
Tahtu
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by Tahtu »

You are right: It's very hard to implement the needed features, not no unneeded features. So it's also hard to find out, which options are useful and which not.

Every unneeded feature / option makes it harder for the user to find the wanted feature / option. Because of this, it's not a solution to implement all suggested / requested features and options.

PP has very many options - this is nice to have. But because they are too many, it's not easy to find the wanted.

The spelling feature is nice - I got it, after I received a Pro license in honor of my work with the German translation. I activated the license and wanted to use the spelling feature. But I had to figure out, that I have to execute the installation program, choose custom setup and enable the Spelling feature. (I didn't install them before, since I never wanted to write mails with PP for several years.)

PP didn't show me the way to get that feature. I didn't find a notice on the plugin page of your web server, and you personally were not able to show the right way to me. Before I post a message inside the forum, I do my best to solve the problem by myself. Because of this, I wasted a lot of time, which would not be needed, if PP would be installed with all plugins together. Today, hard disk space is not be a problem furthermore.

Indeed, PP could be offer a better notification about the missing plugin, like it offers on other plugin. This seems to be an issue, since Jeff implements small issues. (I don't want to blame him, I have also my problems like writing texts without spelling assistance.)

Thinking from the point of a user is hard for a good programmer. A programmer thinks different from a user. The programmer is thinking technical with alorythms, but users are thinks more like a people who do not want to think at all. :wink:
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Jeff
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Re: Access to Remote Folders

Post by Jeff »

I have added text to the bottom of the Plugins page which should answer such questions in the future.

And, as I alluded to before, remote folders is getting a significant enhancement in v6. The current method -- which allows new mail notification for specific folders -- will still be available, but there will be a more convenient method available.
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